Beginner: Huge problems with my 2008er Rise

Total Posts: 6

Joined 2011-06-10

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Hey everyone, I hope you can help me…

A few words about me & how i got to OR: I’m from germany, 29 years old and began kiting a year ago in denmakr when I took a three day course with core kites. At the end of the course I could body drag and control/relaunch the kite. When I got home I immediatly checked eBay for kites where I found a set from ocean rodeo by accident: The 12 + 8 Rise with bar. I bought it as I read how awesome+sturdy these are…
Unfortunately it was already autumn by the time I had everything (neo, board, ..) so I only went a few times out and -being only with a beginner friend- did not really get anywhere.

But now I have returned from another kiting week in denmark with more lessons, been on the board a few times with spleene kites from the school.

During the last two days, i tried my 12er OR…

The problem:
The wind was at the low end at around 12 knots when i tried it first. What happened (at least in this light wind) is: Whenever I depowered the kite too much, it stalled and fell out off the sky. Whenever I parked the kite at 12 o clock for too long, it flew above me and stalled aswell. Luckily I had a teacher with me who untangled the lines…

What I tried:
To get on the board, I parked the kite more at 2 o’clock & used the stopper to not depower too much.

Since I was quite unhappy with the 2008 bar since the safety leash has to be attached above the bar for maximum depower and a quick release that just felt a little outdated, I bought a 4 line north bar from 2010 in the shop nearby.

Additionally I checked and fixed the E2 line length according to http://oceanrodeo.com/forums/viewthread/1112/ - it was 1cm too long on one side and 2 cm on the other.

The hell broke loose:
After the new bar + E2 fix, I went out again the next day with a little bit more wind (14-16 knots). At first the kite felt better, but I still could not prevent it from stalling from time to time (depower at 12 o clock).

One time the kite stalled & crashed, lines got tangled and it flew erradically in front of me without too much power, but i could not really steer it. Thats when i decided to quick release - big mistake: After letting the bar go, the kite began looping at the edge of the wind window (it looped and pulled me a few meters, crashed onto the water and relaunched + looped once the safety was tensioned again). I already had my hand on the safety release since i could not do anything and was getting closer to a harbour when another kiter came by and took the kite.

On the thread http://oceanrodeo.com/forums/viewthread/2396/ you write any 4 line bar will do with equal line lengths (plus “kook” proof connectors) - however with the north bar the safety is attached to both front lines whereas the OR bar has the safety only attached to one front line. When testing the quick release of the north bar after this accident by a teacher, it lead to the kite sitting in the water in front of you pulling so you could not reach the bar anymore.

After this shock, I re-attached the OR bar and went out once again. While getting on the board, the kite stalled, lines got tangled and when it relaunched by itself, it looped in the power zone until i quick released. This time, the kite was properly depowered and i could safely get to the land.

I immediatly stowed the OR away, got a 12er kite from the school and went out - it did not stall once. :(

The result
These two incidents not only scared me, they made me think if i got the wrong equipment. Especially since my girlfriend wants to begin kiting, if this had happened to her, it would’ve been the last time… Is the kite not beginner friendly? :( Did i just threw money away at the north bar? Am I doing it wrong?
When a teacher flew the kite, he complimented the steering of the kite and the pull, however he was too quite irritated by the stalling.


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Total Posts: 517

Joined 2008-04-13

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Hi Malte,
welcome to the crew, and sad to read that the OR gear did not work for you.
I have some questions though - when you say “stalling”, don’t you mean nose diving? With the kite at 12:00, on full depower, what will happen is this. The back lines have no tension, and the kite will want to fall over into the wind. Rise kites can and will do this because A: they have a huge and very effective depower range; and B: they can fly very far towards the edge of the wind window.
It seems like all you needed to do is to keep tension on the back line with the kite overhead, and in lower winds, trim the bar to full power.

Stalling is something completely different, in fact it’s the opposite of what you describe: A kite stalls when the back lines are sheeted in too much, causing the air flow over the canopy to stop, killing all the lift.

Further, I’m not following you on the safety part. All Rise bars (SLE and freeride) have always flagged on both front lines.
I’m not sure what to make of you story, did your teacher try to help you out and it didn’t work? Any experienced kiter can tell you what not to do with the kite at 12:00, and the trouble with the bar, could it have been he is unfamiliar with the gear an helped you the wrong way…

Anyway, I’m glad you found your way to our little forum here so we can help you get riding OR again and forget about that other kite you got…

You could start with posting some pictures of the bar, laid out on the ground with the lines straight, and show us what you thought you had to attach the leash to. Posting photos of your girlfriend will certainly alert the UK crew to help you to great effect.

cheers,
Rudo


Total Posts: 6

Joined 2011-06-10

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Hi Rudo,

thanks for your lightning fast response and sorry for the misunderstanding: As english is not my native language, I got mixed up when talking about stalling but meaning nose diving. I mean nose diving from your description! smile

“It seems like all you needed to do is to keep tension on the back line with the kite overhead, and in lower winds, trim the bar to full power.”

On both days, I had the bar trimmed to full power and on the second day also attached the outer (steering) lines to the second knot making them shorter. In fact one of the teachers later showed me the kite does not nose dive when at 12 o clock while pulling the bar about half way.
Problem is: As beginner I am not always fully aware of the powering of the bar while getting the board under the feet / preparing the start. I don’t let go off the bar or something tho wink
Edit: Additionally, I learnt to depower the bar when steering for the water start and power it once the kite gains speed and i want to stand up on the board. This worked well for the other kites, but lead to nose dive when not careful with the rise.


And I haven’t had other kites nose dive on me at all these days (used spleene qx 12m and 15m from school, bandit III 11m of my other beginner friend I mentioned before).

Further, I’m not following you on the safety part. All Rise bars (SLE and freeride) have always flagged on both front lines.

I’ve attached pictures of my bar (sorry, lines still tangled after second self rescue - I was so frustrated yesterday….). On the second photo you can see the attachment point of the safety leash I used. This will make the kite flag out on one front line.

Cheers,
Malte

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Total Posts: 6

Joined 2011-06-10

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And here the bar I bought. It has a virtual 5th line, a line that goes through the bar to a connection point holding both front lines for the safety leash.

Also a picture of gf+me wink

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Total Posts: 6

Joined 2011-06-10

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And finally.. my rise last year near Hörnum, Sylt - carried by the friend mentioned before wink

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Total Posts: 466

Joined 2006-06-15

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Malte If English is your second language it is superb!!
Without repeating the excellent advice from El Rudo I would like to offer a bit more.
The Spleene and Core kites are very similar being Delta shape and sit back in the window this help prevent them overflying and crashing ( Hindenburg after the air ship) This make them very easy for students and wave riding. The down side is they don’t jump as well or go upwind as easily once you are up and riding. The Rise simply has more performance. This is of course of no use if you can’t get up.
Leaving your kite at 12 o’clock should not be done with any kite. If you have clean gust free wind you will get away with it but on gusty beaches there is a high chance of “Lofting” ( Being yanked up into the air by a gust then dropped like a stone once the wind has gone through. High risk of injury)
The solution is to keep the kite at 1 or 11 O’clock even when getting the board on your feet. Your bottom picture is a good position for the kite.

The Leash above the bar is what I recommend for my student until they are up and riding and have become “One ” with the kite as this is the safest position ( Though a pain if deployed to tidy up ) .
Ocean Rodeo do sell the 2011 chicken loop separately which then allows you to leash to the non cleat end of the depower rope. It is still not as good as a single front line system for safety but a good compromise.
North Bar. This is an above the bar system and will give you the option of which system you prefer.  Some like above some like below you choose . The down side of above is limited bar throw and depower range but as a beginner if you need that range you are on the wrong size kite!!!

I have used the Rise from 2008 for teaching in gusty locations . They do need a little more practice than some but they ride way better. Let face it would you aspire to the car you learned to drive in?


Total Posts: 446

Joined 2006-10-24

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I’d agree here. Never have a kite at 12 unless you’re jumping. Kite at 11 or 1 o’clock when getting the board on. Otherwise keep it low and to the side. If it’s down low and something goes wrong it gives you some time to pull the safety. If it’s above you you’re at risk of being lofted or have the kite drop back into the power zone and power up. You’ll quickly develop a little routine for getting the board on. That’s your own personal way of doing it, it’s what works for you.

You should always have just a touch of tension in the back lines too. That means you can maintain control and stop the kite from falling forward.

good luck

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The only kiter in the Village


Total Posts: 6

Joined 2011-06-10

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Okay so it sounds like the problem is likely to be found behind the bar wink However I take it the rise is rather a intermediate-advanced kite and more difficult for beginners. Not sure to let my gf go out with it…

After all your replies, I think I will give the rise another go - any further hints for me besides parking at 11/1 when getting the board under my feet and keeping the bar somewhat powered at all times?

I can also see a problem with whenever I drop into the water:  When i can’t see the kite because i am submerged I usually let go of the bar to not make it go berzerk. Then the kite is fully depowered however…

Can there be a problem with the kite too as the kite was soo easily nose diving?

And the looping after quick release was just bad luck and can always happen with two frontline safety?


Total Posts: 446

Joined 2006-10-24

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You keep the bar in just far enough to “feel the kite”. If you are still over powered then you need to adjust the trim to depower the kite a little. Just a little back line pressure achieves 2 things.

Firstly it stops it over flying and dropping as you’ve experienced and secondly it keeps some tension in the back lines such that the steering is responsive. This means that smaller adjustments are needed at the bar to keep the kite steady.

Same again when you go under just keep a little tension in those lines. For thge same reasons above. If you dump the bar with the kite high it will shoot forward and is likely to overfly the wind window.

The Rise’s are kites that are capable of suiting all styles of rider and the problems you’re experiencing are pretty typical of some problems that many have when starting. I certainly had a few. One of the biggest hurdles that beginners need to overcome is having and understanding how much power is actually needed to get you up and planing.

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Total Posts: 6

Joined 2011-06-10

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Hey noo noo,

I have been out today again with 8-12 knots - so not much wind at all (I had a difficult time relaunching as the spot was behind a dike and it was not enough wind to get my 100kg running).
However I did manage to not nose dive the kite anymore! smile I focused on keeping tension on the back lines, not parking the kite at 12 but rather 11/1pm and having it move around. Also I managed to get into the board under this lightwind conditions, tho even a looping start could not get me very far smile

A question: I used the north bar and forgot the OR bar including the extensions for the backlines - so i attached the bar without them. Why are they needed? Don’t they just add some more depower?

Regards,
Malte


Total Posts: 446

Joined 2006-10-24

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It’s just the OR set up. Different manufacturers set up bars with and without connectors (or kook proof connectors) in different ways. The important thing is that OR kites are set up so that it’s very difficult to put the lines on the wrong way.

The fact that you didn’t have these on may have helped you a little although it’s difficult to say without checking all the line lengths. Suffice to say taking 6cm or so off the back lines obviously shortens them a little and helps in keeping that little bit of back line tension that we’ve been discussing. It might be worth checking the line lengths on both your bars.

Good to hear that you’ve had a positive little session though. That’s a step forward. Have you found a little routine for getting the board on your feet yet?

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Total Posts: 11

Joined 2008-11-05

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Hello Malte,
How is your hindenburg-issue? Did you make any progress?
I am using an OR ONE 7m with the new bridle-setup. The last 2-years I didn’t use it , because there was not enough wind at my kiting spots.
Two week ago my son was using it in rough conditions at Lake Garda. In the middle of the lake it front-stalled and he had big problems to get it up again and to kite it (tangled) back to the shore.
My first thought afterwards was to get rid of the kite.  Now I am on my way to SPO in northern Germany and expect high winds and waves during the weekend. I have my nice F-One Revolt 9m in delta shape and I am not sure, if my son should use the OR-kite again in these conditions.
@2all: How many of you sold their (OR one - )kites because of these problems. How many of you just got used to the behavior and now everything is fine?

Malte123